Thanks for making me look forward to a day other than Friday and Saturday, Donnah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyP-OOm05Z8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKfW_NVOBj4

Thanks to you both, D & Y.

This pic well illustrates something about Duane Allman's physiognomy that was no doubt an aid to his virtuosity: Look at how dang long and skinny those fingers are; they look like the long shanks under the hood of a baby grand piano!

But then again, Jerry Gracia could play pretty well too, and he had only 9.5 stubbies.

yeah Carl, that's why all the girls liked him...

it's funny you mention that..in recent years the pop guitarists have learned they have four fingers on their left hand, during Duane's time..almost every guitarist would use just the first three fingers of their left hand to play. That being said, Duane worked some riffs that incorporated some mean stretches...the kind that required *some* digits of merit.

In other words...playing low on the neck, say in the key of G, certain riffs are nearly impossible.
On up the neck..ito A or B, etc. it's easier, because the frets are closer.

Dickey's got some dang long fingers also..so does EC- Even today, you hardly ever see those guys use their pinky. All the players today..the 'shredders' use all four...but it is a completely different style altogether.

I would like to thank Yo, and of course Donnah also. A great way to start the hump.

long fingers or not, it ain't what you got but what you do with it. being self taught is the reason for leaving off the pinky. god knows my bass teacher used to stress proper technique when this 17 year old would be proud of learning another "Who" song or something. as a college freshman, i used to take "beginnings" to music theory class and play "don't want you no more/it's not my cross to bear" before class started. sure beat the hell out of our "hip" dept.head trying to illustrate examples with billy joel or paul simon. "i got your dorian mode right here, pal. no, seriously, let me explain to you about authentic and plagal cadences, mixolydian and dorian modes and 11/8 and 12/8 feels". ah, the hubris of youth.

i don't think duane had near the talent gregg was blessed with but he did have what a lot of blessed people don't have: the drive to succeed at what he chose to do. now that can't be taught and i'd say that's why he was the sparkplug that fired the motor.

Richard, I've got to disagree with you there re who had more talent, if you meant talent as pure musicians. 100 years from now Duane Allman will still be in the pantheon of the greatest guitar players who ever lived. Gregg surely has him beat on vocals, keyboards and maybe styling (maybe looks too), but Duane is the only guitarist I have ever heard who could reach those transcendental notes and passages that you knew were there, could follow perfectly with your mind and fully appreciate the beauty of his progression s right off the scale - - I do not know the correct musical terminology here - - but that NO human ear could actually hear. It was not mere volume either; having no musical talent myself, I find it hard to express other than to say there was that absolute power of suggestion of "the beyond" in his playing that was -- and still is-- unique. That's why Donnah (and others) say, "Wail on, Skydog!". Wail on indeed.

That said, they were both blessed with a heap load of talent.

although..I feel *driven* myself to chime in, time is on my side..so I will choose another day.

Besides, it is quite entertaining listening in.

I think when Duane went to Mucscle Shoals (after the lace period) he found Robert Johnson's 'crossroads' and made a deal..no wonder ol Lucifer cashed em both in so quick..

Personally, I think "Leave my Blues at Home" characterizes the band perfectly, dual lead, dual drums, strong bass ..vocals.. but, everytime I hear any of their Berry Oakley tunes, I am in awe of his talent-he literally *made* some of the songs work...as did Thom D.

"Sublime" was the word I was searching for....

Richard is being very provocative this morning. Name one professional keyboard player who found Gregg's B3 playing praiseworthy. It won't be Bobby Whitlock, that's for sure.

I like Wednesday's too, YO. I wonder what Thom thinks about his decision not to join the band. I'm sure at some points he said, "Whew!", especially back when the only way out of the band was death.

Here's another good pic of his fingers:
http://www.florida-cracker.org/archives/000673.html

Hmmmmm, not too sure if Gregg is/was more talented than Duane. Donnah, what has Whitlock said about Gregg's playing??

He was praising another guy's B3-playing abilities and the interviewer asked about Gregg's playing. Bobby basically said the instrument was wasted on Gregg. He was derisive. You know how Bobby talks.

Come to think about it, Gregg was usually pretty wasted on the instrument.

He may have a point, but who the hell is Whitlock to talk about Allman's B3 playing???

Another keyboard player? That's why it has credibility. That it comes from *this* particular keyboard player does downgrade it somewhat as Bobby often talks down other people.

Hey, in all fairness to Gregg; if the AllBros. wanted/needed a virtuoso keyboard player, they'd have kept Reese Wynans from the first "magical" jam, or Johnny Neel from the "Seven Turns" reunion. Or Chuck Leavell for that matter...
Gregg is a more than adequate B-3 player who has on-the-record expressed his dislike of organ solos. He is happy at every opportunity to play guitar in the ABB or his own band.
But Duane (the musical genius) put the band together. He was the one with the heart & the hands(fingers) but most important, the EARS. I'm paraphrasing, but he said about "little brother", "If there's a better blues singin' white boy out there, I ain't heard him!"
Gregg is the voice(his solo instrument) & the songwriter & the arranger of their biggest & best tunes. I mean, when did you ever hear Bob Dylan praised for his guitar and harmonica work?

Johnny Jenkins has died . . .

It's all in the song. There are plenty of great musicians out there. Take Jeff Beck for example.
An awesome guitarist, isn't know for his songwriting skills but is highly regarded as a guitarist. If he'd had some decent material to work with in the late 60's he'd be a household name. He had the jump on Zepplin by almost a year. He had a great band with Rod Stewart on vocals and Ron Wood on Bass, The problem was weak material.
If Duane had garbage to play on he would probably make it better, but in the end it's still garbage. As the saying goes, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Got it, YO, thanks.

i'm not trying to be an agent provocateur, i'm stating facts about something that is subjective to a lot of people, which is always dangerous. gregg has a great touch on acoustic. he taught duane the fundamentals. he sings in tune. he plays keys. he writes and knows enough to to fiddle around with arrangements. drug use and indolence does not negate him being the more gifted of the two.

Duane was a guitar player and one of the best white post WWII electric players ever! only b.b.king and hendrix equal or surpass him for emotional content but that doesn't make him as naturally gifted as baby bro. hard work(what's that line about eating speed and playing all night for three years?) and natural fire made him the professional and influential guy that we all love. he's right up there with John freaking Coltrane in my book. being a crappy singer and having suspect intonation at times does not detract from his greatness at all. it just adds to it. character, i believe it's called. without that, you might as well be al dimeloa when he played electric....boring(ah, al on acoustic now...that will flat get it).

when you talk about white guys playing guitar in the 60's and 70's, you've got to mention Duane, Blackmore and Mclaughlin as some of the best and funniest cats to wang a six string. Clapton had a ferpy attack but he still was "da man" or Duane wouldn't have been so influenced by him. Beck is bat shit crazy which is why he didn't scale the heights of monetary success like jimmy "eh, i'm not that great but i'm smarter than most about it" page.

Duane was influenced by all the british guys too but in the end, he became a peer to them and a monster because he ate, slept and lived his axe. Like Charlie Parker or Coltrane or Hendrix, that's what it takes to get that good. Period. 10 to 15 hours a day for 3 years will do that.

plus he was born in tennessee and raised there and florida. you can't beat roots like that when you're going to play blues, soul and rock and roll. take that, limeys!

sometimes i feel bad when we leave dickey out. duane said he was the good one of the two. dickey has a much different style of building a solo, more like building a house from the ground up with his thematic development. Duane had all that in spades but lordy, he might start on the roof first. :)

Well..this has generated the usual Wed-Ness-Day gaggle..!!

nahh..nevermind. It's just too juicy like it is.
Ha!

You've come in here doing the funky chicken twice today, Owen. You got something to say, spit it out.
You've got gaggle-cred.

But back to the 1st topic; Who's more talented, Duane or Gregg?
It's comparing apples to oranges, but I've been listening for 35+ years, and it's not for Gregg, Dickie or Eric(although they are great "sidemen")...

It's Duane hands down, even vs. Jimi or Eric or SRV.
Wail on, SkyDog....

wail on, indeed. "why does love got to be so sad" pretty much nails it to the wall for this little black duck.

Good point, Richard. It's funny how must people assume that Duane just played slide on the ''Layla'' album, when he played awesome, straight lead on numerous tracks, including the one you mentioned, as well as ''Keep on Growing'' and ''Little Wing''

Richard: You were just kidding this morning, right?

Right??!?

hey, YO, Duane doesn't come in on layla till track 4. keep on growing is all clapton, all strat. from there on out, it's both of them. easy peasey to tell the diff, even if they are using champ amps. clapton plays some slide too, like on "anyday" but he's always using the strat so it's real open and brittle compared to duane's sound which is more dark in contrast. plus you can tell the duane licks if you listen.

Carl,well, no, i'm not kidding. just because he's Duane doesn't mean he wasn't human, you know. his intonation can be suspect on some tracks and i chalk it up to playing in the cracks on purpose, because otherwise, my statement stands and how dare i state that one of the transcendental guitarist of all time put his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. in the parlance of musicians/guitarists, he overbends for effect. like mike bloomfield, duane is a master of bending to the note, 1/4 of the way, 1/2 way and a little above or below for effect. spot on is dull, and i won't say that my fave guy would be pristine, it's not in his rough and ready character, which is my main point.

if musicians could't overcome technical limitations due to force of personality, they would all be very good and very dull. some guys, especially tight asses with perfect pitch, don't like duane..like the beginning of little wing on layla, he's in the cracks. i know the difference because (not that i'm any good, mind you) i've been a musician all my life and played enough guitar along with these records to go "what? that's not completely up to pitch...that sly rascal".

then again, it could be the smack, coke and booze. (now that's kidding. duane could be passed out and play well)

it's just that i should not talk about subjective things like music with people, bottom line. Duane knew his limitations, he was no singer but that don't stop a lot of people, like hendrix. he just lived that guitar and his life and personality came out the amp. that's why we're here talking about it. i mean, it's like one guy is a great typist(technician) but can't write(improvise) to save his life and one guy is a great writer(improvisor) who can't type(be all boring and technical) and one guy is good at both, if i can use that analogy. Duane is Duane, he's good at both. otherwise, i doubt i'd freak out at the level of professionalism the allman joys exhibit on the tape of that gig that circulates.

Courage, fire, a fuck you charley attitude and hard work makes duane what he is.

you can compare duane and dickey to get a sense of what i'm talking about if you're not a musician. dickey is never sour on purpose and that is part of his personality. duane spices things up, like bloomfield did, because of his influences and what he is trying to do.

i'm so not going to open my mouth anymore. now, excuse me whilst i go play my les paul that is named Howard in honor of me hero. :)

Well, I guess I have to say...is Gregg Allman
plays a better B3 than me, that's for sure. I never met him, but I would hope that if/when I do I manage to take advantage of the situation, and try to learn something. Maybe not what one could or even would call it...but nevertheless...

UNLIKE the situation that happened to me at the beach with Johnny Vernazza, I did take advantage of this situation today.

Meet Dick..the retired Methodist minister.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e89/csason/preachers%20junior/guitarpreacher001.jpg

he just moved to town, and he needed my services.

That guitar he is holding he paid 50 bucks for in 1956...unfortunately, he had it refinished.

He is quite a guy. 35 years in the pulpit.

back to Duane-ese, ...nah nevermind.

Richard: I've said before here: I'm WAY out of my depth with you musician types. I can only speak as a layman,an "old man" who was acyually 'there' during the 1963-1973 renaissance in music, and who heard the ABB play many times. IMHO, the band never recovered from Duane's and Berry's deaths; I took my son to see the "ABB" in ATL 5 - 6 years ago at Lakewood and with all due respect to Gregg and Dickey, I was very, very disappointed: the band simply cannot render their own classics anymore, or any respectable variations thereof(the new co-lead guitar tried but simply could not do anything like what Duane did-- not even a good imitation; he couldn't hit those sublime DA notes [ aka "cracks?]).

Bourgeois, I know it, but I "know what I like" and I still believe that 50-100 years from now people will still remember and appreciate Duane Allman's greatness; the others will be footnotes, if not forgotten. Remember, we laymen just listen and enjoy (especially us Scots-Irish pig farmer types). Like lawyers and the law,, or better yet, congressmen and legislating, you musicians know way too much about the sausage-making side of music-making. I could care less if Duane played in "the cracks". I do regret that Jimi H wasted so much of his talent on mere showmanship (playing with his teeth, behind his back, the lighter fluid thing, etc., Sheesh!). That was just due to insecurity though. Whenever I saw Duane Allman he just played.

BTW, I like Jeff Beck as well, but there's no accounting for taste.

Peace, man...

Richard,

My bad, you are absolutely correct. I meant ''Anyday''

I haven't scoured the comments looking for a hole to take a dump in, but I want to say something along the lines Richard was speaking to.

Richard mentioned some great players..I am a weekend warrior, at best. I have listened to a LOT of players, and studied them. Oh and BTW, when Gregg Allman released the Laid Back album, I thought it was among the best stuff ever produced by one or the both of the two brothers...but *talent* is subjective. I mean after all..I just figured out about my ADHD stuff.

Back to Duane Allman. One of the oddest things I have noticed about the recordings we have of DA, is the unique characteristics of the Fillmore set.

His playing on that occasion seemed to have that
'ethereal' quality about it.

In the course of his playing, I hear (not in the slide) some overstepping..used to pull out of a solo when your out of time, and such..that is not the thing or virtuosos or however you spell it. My point is..(thinking of other examples too) that DA was actually a fledgling guitarist when he died. There are lots of made up fixes and corrections in the course of some of his 5 minute solos.

What I think places him amongst the greats-is his
almost unatural rise..from out of nowhere seemingly, and the great moments of his peak captured in recordings. But unlike millions who love music, and can play well..it seems he really
wanted to make a special distinct sound so bad..he worked more than most to perfect it. And I am grateful, because I listen to it all the time.
Along the way, he happened to start a few trends in playing that are virutally commonplace now. Especially for slide players..he presents a standard.

The stuff that came out of Muscle Shoals, albeit
cool DA stuff, was weak weak weak..in comparison
to the sound HE obviously wanted. I also think the stuff done with EC was not the product that DA
wanted to be remembered for. I think he had an extreme loyalty to his brother, and an idea of a destiny for them both. I think the sound you finally hear, just shortly before his death is that product.
I can almost see the two of them discussing how they would replicate Elmore James, etc. I've noticed that everything else that DA did *other than the ABB stuff* didn't fall into that groove
that nearly every song they play does. Even Layla
sounds like two seperate guys trying to perform together...it's hard to explain.
But Dickey and Berry and DA..that was something altogether different.

i ain't saying nothing bad about my hero, duane.

(and amen on the ghost ship they keep tilling toward the shore. )

DA was the leader, the fire, the sparkplug and more, he was the john coltrane to dickey's cannonball adderly and greg's wynton kelly. i think that makes berry miles! ha!

i love jeff beck. he's one of the few that has grown and grown and grown but he's still crazy as a loon, like this other fellow we come here on wednesday's to see.

nothing wrong with showmanship either. gotta have a gimmick. the ABB's gimmick was not having one. that's valid.

why is it bourgeois to dig what you dig at the level you dig it, dig? :)

anyways, my point is that gregg has more native talent than duane, not that duane is diminished in any way shape or form by that little fact. he did what he did the way he wanted to on purpose for a reason and he's up there with charlie parker and Trane and miles as far as white boy guitar players goes..and there ain't many of them at all, especially in rock and roll. still don't mean he's not out of tune occasionaly. character, courage, fire and intent. he can do what he wants, i'm going to listen.

besides, what do i know? i'm just an old bass player. (berry starts her off...)

(yo, didn't mean to come off heavy handed..just been in a mood today)

the muscle shoals and atlantic session stuff isn't weak, it's just his strat through a fender twin phase. this is a guy who played an es-345 with the joys, and a tele in the hollywood days. there is nothing duane didn't know about guitar, it is said and i concur. you don't be a pro at age 18 and date chet atkins daughter if you don't know your shit inside out. i've seen chet atkins suck the root on a bad day. that's what i mean about being human.

wail on, skydog,

poor Richard...just like me.. All that DA passion.

And just a few worthless sots to share it with.

well at least one worthless sot, HA

I'm with you, bro. I still think 'talent' is subjective, besides..that way it means you're right, and so is the other guy(s)/gals.

What I think is..the fire that DA was pressing into the mix (not there without) pushed the very best (heretofor unknown) out of all of them.
I doubt anyone may have ever known about Dickey or Gregg had it not been for some kid trying to sound like Elmore. Once that pusher was gone, they were left to fend for themselves..the results are self-evident.

I played in a band back in the 70's. My potnah played a LP Recording, I played a 74 GT. He did the Dickey part(and Allen) I did the DA (and Gary) part.
That guy pissed me of as much as DA pissed Dickey and Berry off. He beat the crap out of me everytime we practiced, I grew to dread it, but everytime...it was awesome. We had our tunes down, the reason being is his routine lashing.

He would look at the rest of us, just like that picture Donnah has of DA looking at Dickey.

oh and missing a break meant- amps out the window, guitars on the floor, neighbors REALLY calling the cops...more beer, more gigs, more insanity...

I kinda think I have a glimmer of the 'quest for *LIVE*' DA had goin on also, in that..we played a party called "Polock's" pronounced Poe Lock. It was at a chicken ranch by invitation only way out in the middle of 3000 acres of mercots, near Dundee, FL. It was my favorite gig, even though
we had to contend with hogs/dogs/chcickens/kids/more beer/experimental food/overly friendly wives... and power was at the base of a grove fan about 3miles away.

My point is, I wish o wish we would have had a mixing board and recording equip there, some nights we just floated, and everybody went with us... (i know what youre thinkin..) there are some who say The Fillmore East release was 'cherry picked excerpts of a great weekend'.
The 'gay sounding' stuff that was clipped..needed to be.